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Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Joined: 9 Feb 05
Posts: 112
Credit: 15015
RAC: 0
Topic 189984

@ Ariane.

You said you're interested in quantum mechanics, so it might interest you to read a small explantion of, what the principle of Schrödinger's cat is, I wrote some time ago and posted over at the Seti boards, as people there asked me about the quote I had then and also have here now "Some days I feel like Schrödinger's cat!"

I was asked if Schrödinger's cat actually is a cat, but it isn't! It's a quantum cat! So here is goes:

No, Schrödinger used the cat as an example to explain the principles of uncertainty in quantum mechanics, which says that the photons can exist both as a particle and as a wave. Schrödingers cat has the destiny to be both alive and partly alive at the same time and suffers from a certain quantum-identity crisis.

So he puts the cat in a cage with opaque walls, so nobody can see the cat until the story is over. Then he puts a small amount of radioactive material in the cage, which has the, for the clarity of it, the probability of 50% to send radiation upwards and the probability of 50% to send radiation downwards. If the radiation goes upwards it will hit a particledetector which turns on a switch, which lets a lethal dose of poison drop down in the foodbowl, and if the radiation goes downwards, it turns on a switch, which drops food down in the bowl, and the cat will survive until the next experiment.

These possibilities, upwards, the cat dies, downwards, the cat lives, are what we usually expect in our daily world, but things are not so simple for the quantum cat, as it, according to the prevalent quantum theory, both is dead and alive. The cat in in the same condition as the electrons, which can be both waves and particles at the same time.

So the best thing we can do for this poor cat is to descibe it with all its possibilities with a Schrödinger wave-function, an equation, which describes all its possibilities. (And don't ask me about this equation!)

In this example the possibilities tells us that the cat has eaten the poison and is dead (1. possibility) and that the cat has eaten the food and is alive (2. possibility). First when this wavefunction collaps, when all possibilities solidify, we can approach a real cat which we either can pet or burry. A such collaps must happen at a certain time, because when we, as the story goes, open the cage and see the cat, it's dead. The question is then: What killed the cat?

This question, which isn't only relevant to our quantum cat, but to all of us and all what we see around us, goes directly to the question of, why there exists a reality, and this creates a paradox because the world is full of ordinary cats which are either dead or alive, and on the other side the physics that says that this is impossible. The math behind Schrödingers equation says that nothing can decide the destiny of the cat, that nothing can make its wavefunction collaps. Even if we place a camera inside the cage to monitor if it's dead or alive, the camera will be so "overwhelmed" by all the possibilities, so it will assume the classic quantum mechanic behaviour and show everything to everybody.

So, despite of what we say, the quantum theory says that the cat is - and must always be, both dead and alive. And this paradox is called the observationproblem, as it contradicts our usually observations and because it focus on the role of the observervation and thereby the observer in creation of reality.

I hope you understand it. :-)

I change my quotes frequently, so now I have a German quote over at Seti:

"Ich hab' gesucht ganz allein meine Sterne,

die Träume verflucht und mit keinem geteilt."

which is from a song:

Gefährten des Sturmwinds
Komposition: Ulrich Swillms / Text: Norbert Kaiser, Herbert Dreilich

Jeden Tag neu
wird der Sturmwind gebor'n.
Er fliegt um die Welt,
und er kennt keine Spur.
Und jeden Tag
sucht er neue Gefährten.
Er klopft an mein Herz,
und er sucht eine Tür.

Einsam und wild
war mein Hunger nach Freiheit.
Ich habe geliebt,
was der Zufall mir gab.
Ich hab' gesucht
ganz allein meine Sterne,
die Träume verflucht
und mit keinem geteilt.

Auch wenn der Sturm
dein Dach zerbricht,
und wenn er dich
bis zur Erde biegt,
steh wieder auf,
biet ihm die Stirn,
denn er trägt dich weit,
wenn du mit ihm fliegst.

Jeden Tag neu
wechseln Lichter und Schatten.
Ich zieh' meine Bahn
wie ein Treibholz im Fluß.
Und manche Nacht
träume ich von den Fluten.
Ich geh' mit dem Sturm,
und er wartet auf mich.

Denn hundertmal
bin ich ihm schon begegnet,
und jeden Tag neu
schau' ich ihm ins Gesicht.

Ariane Von WolfLand
Ariane Von WolfLand
Joined: 30 Aug 05
Posts: 347
Credit: 626
RAC: 0

CLOSED CLOSED CLOSED...

Quote:

@ Ariane.

You said you're interested in quantum mechanics, so it might interest you to read a small explantion of, what the principle of Schrödinger's cat is, I wrote some time ago and posted over at the Seti boards, as people there asked me about the quote I had then and also have here now "Some days I feel like Schrödinger's cat!"

I was asked if Schrödinger's cat actually is a cat, but it isn't! It's a quantum cat! So here is goes:

No, Schrödinger used the cat as an example to explain the principles of uncertainty in quantum mechanics, which says that the photons can exist both as a particle and as a wave. Schrödingers cat has the destiny to be both alive and partly alive at the same time and suffers from a certain quantum-identity crisis.

So he puts the cat in a cage with opaque walls, so nobody can see the cat until the story is over. Then he puts a small amount of radioactive material in the cage, which has the, for the clarity of it, the probability of 50% to send radiation upwards and the probability of 50% to send radiation downwards. If the radiation goes upwards it will hit a particledetector which turns on a switch, which lets a lethal dose of poison drop down in the foodbowl, and if the radiation goes downwards, it turns on a switch, which drops food down in the bowl, and the cat will survive until the next experiment.

These possibilities, upwards, the cat dies, downwards, the cat lives, are what we usually expect in our daily world, but things are not so simple for the quantum cat, as it, according to the prevalent quantum theory, both is dead and alive. The cat in in the same condition as the electrons, which can be both waves and particles at the same time.

So the best thing we can do for this poor cat is to descibe it with all its possibilities with a Schrödinger wave-function, an equation, which describes all its possibilities. (And don't ask me about this equation!)

In this example the possibilities tells us that the cat has eaten the poison and is dead (1. possibility) and that the cat has eaten the food and is alive (2. possibility). First when this wavefunction collaps, when all possibilities solidify, we can approach a real cat which we either can pet or burry. A such collaps must happen at a certain time, because when we, as the story goes, open the cage and see the cat, it's dead. The question is then: What killed the cat?

This question, which isn't only relevant to our quantum cat, but to all of us and all what we see around us, goes directly to the question of, why there exists a reality, and this creates a paradox because the world is full of ordinary cats which are either dead or alive, and on the other side the physics that says that this is impossible. The math behind Schrödingers equation says that nothing can decide the destiny of the cat, that nothing can make its wavefunction collaps. Even if we place a camera inside the cage to monitor if it's dead or alive, the camera will be so "overwhelmed" by all the possibilities, so it will assume the classic quantum mechanic behaviour and show everything to everybody.

So, despite of what we say, the quantum theory says that the cat is - and must always be, both dead and alive. And this paradox is called the observationproblem, as it contradicts our usually observations and because it focus on the role of the observervation and thereby the observer in creation of reality.

I hope you understand it. :-)

I change my quotes frequently, so now I have a German quote over at Seti:

"Ich hab' gesucht ganz allein meine Sterne,

die Träume verflucht und mit keinem geteilt."

which is from a song:

Gefährten des Sturmwinds
Komposition: Ulrich Swillms / Text: Norbert Kaiser, Herbert Dreilich

Jeden Tag neu
wird der Sturmwind gebor'n.
Er fliegt um die Welt,
und er kennt keine Spur.
Und jeden Tag
sucht er neue Gefährten.
Er klopft an mein Herz,
und er sucht eine Tür.

Einsam und wild
war mein Hunger nach Freiheit.
Ich habe geliebt,
was der Zufall mir gab.
Ich hab' gesucht
ganz allein meine Sterne,
die Träume verflucht
und mit keinem geteilt.

Auch wenn der Sturm
dein Dach zerbricht,
und wenn er dich
bis zur Erde biegt,
steh wieder auf,
biet ihm die Stirn,
denn er trägt dich weit,
wenn du mit ihm fliegst.

Jeden Tag neu
wechseln Lichter und Schatten.
Ich zieh' meine Bahn
wie ein Treibholz im Fluß.
Und manche Nacht
träume ich von den Fluten.
Ich geh' mit dem Sturm,
und er wartet auf mich.

Denn hundertmal
bin ich ihm schon begegnet,
und jeden Tag neu
schau' ich ihm ins Gesicht.

Oh, liebe Fuzzy,
Danke fur dein wunderschone Post , Es war sehr freundlich von Ihnen(dir) mir das "Schrodinger Katze" zu erklaren, sehr interessant . Auch das Gedisht war sehr eindrucksvoll, ich habe mich sehr gefreud zu lesen das .Ich werde posten spater ,

Gruss

Ariane

Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Joined: 9 Feb 05
Posts: 112
Credit: 15015
RAC: 0

RE: Oh, liebe Fuzzy,

Message 17902 in response to message 17901

Quote:


Oh, liebe Fuzzy,
Danke fur dein wunderschone Post , Es war sehr freundlich von Ihnen(dir) mir das "Schrodinger Katze" zu erklaren, sehr interessant . Auch das Gedisht war sehr eindrucksvoll, ich habe mich sehr gefreud zu lesen das .Ich werde posten spater ,

Gruss

Thanks :-) but not in German, please! I understand German but can't write it! English is my best other language!

Ariane Von WolfLand
Ariane Von WolfLand
Joined: 30 Aug 05
Posts: 347
Credit: 626
RAC: 0

RE: RE: Oh, liebe

Message 17903 in response to message 17902

Quote:
Quote:


Oh, liebe Fuzzy,
Danke fur dein wunderschone Post , Es war sehr freundlich von Ihnen(dir) mir das "Schrodinger Katze" zu erklaren, sehr interessant . Auch das Gedisht war sehr eindrucksvoll, ich habe mich sehr gefreud zu lesen das .Ich werde posten spater ,

Gruss

Thanks :-) but not in German, please! I understand German but can't write it! English is my best other language!

OK Fuzzy , English is my best other language too :)

See you later

Cheers

Ariane

Sir Ulli
Sir Ulli
Joined: 18 Jan 05
Posts: 121
Credit: 104603
RAC: 0

also a nice Page Einstein

also a nice Page

Einstein Light

and

Time Travel Science or Fiction

and this

http://www.engon.de/protosimplex/index_e.htm

but this is very heavy....

Greetings from Germany NRW
Ulli

Heffed
Heffed
Joined: 18 Jan 05
Posts: 257
Credit: 12368
RAC: 0

I've never subscribed to the

I've never subscribed to the Schrödinger's cat theory because obviously the cat only has two possible states. Alive or dead. It can be either state, but not both regardless of what sort of quantum equation you try to label it with.

A different way of looking at it is anyone you can't see at the moment. There are any given number of things that could happen to them at any moment which would end their lives. Should we then say that any person you can not see is both alive and dead? I think not...

There is no in between. Simply two states, regardless of where you decide to take your sample. :)

Ariane Von WolfLand
Ariane Von WolfLand
Joined: 30 Aug 05
Posts: 347
Credit: 626
RAC: 0

RE: also a nice

Message 17906 in response to message 17904

Quote:

also a nice Page

Einstein Light

and

Time Travel Science or Fiction

and this

http://www.engon.de/protosimplex/index_e.htm

but this is very heavy....

Greetings from Germany NRW
Ulli

Oh Sir Ulli , how astonishing were the relativity in 5 mn and the time travel , really great , i should consult them more attentively tomorrow .

Thanks

Ariane

Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Joined: 9 Feb 05
Posts: 112
Credit: 15015
RAC: 0

RE: I've never subscribed

Message 17907 in response to message 17905

Quote:

I've never subscribed to the Schrödinger's cat theory because obviously the cat only has two possible states. Alive or dead. It can be either state, but not both regardless of what sort of quantum equation you try to label it with.

A different way of looking at it is anyone you can't see at the moment. There are any given number of things that could happen to them at any moment which would end their lives. Should we then say that any person you can not see is both alive and dead? I think not...

There is no in between. Simply two states, regardless of where you decide to take your sample. :)

Schrödinger used in his example for the clarity only two states for the cat. In quantum mechanics you can have an infinite number of states! It's only when the wavefunction collaps, you get an outcome of the situation, where the photon becomes a particle.

And the empirical line in philosophy has dealed with this problem of if I don't see you, do you exist then? Are the surrounding only existing in my mind because I can see it, and disappear it and with that you all, when I don't look? Do you exist? Right now you do, because I'm responding your post and think of you, but what when I don't think of you? Did I exist, before you noticed my posts and do I disappear, when you stop thinking of me?

But in the quantum mechanics all possibilities are open, untill the wavefunction collaps, and I have tried to play with that, concentrating on, that the wavefunction for the Lotto next Saturday will collaps with me as the winner of the 5 mill. there are in the Lotto. Without any luck so far! ;-D

MarkF
MarkF
Joined: 12 Apr 05
Posts: 393
Credit: 1516715
RAC: 0

I for one dislike phrases

I for one dislike phrases like “the wave function collapses” or “quantum state collapses” My first reason is the possible misinterpretation that there something other than quantum fields involved. My second reason is that such phrases hide the fact that we lack or fail to apply the tools to properly describe what is really going on.
When a quantum event such as the splitting of Silver Iodide molecule by a photon the event is over! There will be a time while the states are mixed and the out come is undetermined (in fact the photon may go on it way with out splitting the molecule). Such a mixed state is too unstable to last and must rapidly resolve themselves one way or another. In the case of a photographic emulsion thermal agitation may bring the atoms back together and reform the molecule but that is another separate event. If such mixed states did in fact persist most photographs would be a gray blur when developed.
This is not to say macroscopic mixed states don’t exist. But the difficulties in creating Bose-Einstein condensates and building quantum computers indicate how delicate such states are. Like a lot of otherwise valid ideas quantum entanglement should not be applied outside of it real of applicability.

Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Fuzzy Hollynoodles
Joined: 9 Feb 05
Posts: 112
Credit: 15015
RAC: 0

I don't have any problems

Message 17909 in response to message 17908

I don't have any problems with the words "collaps" or "harden" as it's in my view rhetorically.

Else I agree with you.

MarkF
MarkF
Joined: 12 Apr 05
Posts: 393
Credit: 1516715
RAC: 0

My Dear Fuzzy. My post was

My Dear Fuzzy.
My post was not a responce to your post(s) but rather your latest post promted me to enter the fray.
The abuse of Schrodinger cat has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. It is long past time to give this poor kitty cat a rest. My experience has been putting a feline in such an enclosure would result in serious (non-quantum) lacerations.

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